Could Doctor Who ever be a Woman?

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Re: Could Doctor Who ever be a Woman?

Postby chasnicollette » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:35 pm



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"Allons-y." -The Tenth Doctor.

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Re: Could Doctor Who ever be a Woman?

Postby JM1776 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:55 pm

Considering Gallifreyan regenerative capabilities, I suppose the Doctor could be a man, a woman, a hermaphrodite, or even a Pekingese.

I'm not sure just how groundbreaking it can be considered, but ... if it makes the mass of the show's fans happy, why not?

Let's just hope it's handled better than what they did to Marvel-616 Thor.
I just noticed that Scarlett Johansson is about a decade-and-a-half short of looking like Debi Mazar.
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Re: Could Doctor Who ever be a Woman?

Postby RIP » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:47 am

Well the Master switched genders, so why not the Doctor?

Frankly I find the current trend to simply switch genders of pop culture icons to be very welcome and refreshing. If a universe is immersive and set up well, why shouldn't there be a more diverse cast?

Despite the shitstorm I truely enjoyed the new Ghostbusters movie. Not because of the mediocre plot or way too many easter eggs. I saw the cast and could relate to, each of them in a way I never did with the original cast.

I saw women fighting a system rigged against them, facing sexism and ridicule. I GOT that SO much.

Besides switching positions in certain plots was awesomw. Dumb blonde secretary kept employed for beimg smoking hot... while having a Y chromosome? I loved it.

I'm sure Doctor Who would excel at finding a good balance at this topic, too. They never discriminated against LGBT people. Rather respected them to a wonderful degree. Why should they have a problem with a woman Doctor?
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Re: Could Doctor Who ever be a Woman?

Postby JM1776 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:55 pm

RIP wrote:Frankly I find the current trend to simply switch genders of pop culture icons to be very welcome and refreshing.


I'm absolutely stunned that you and I find ourselves diametrically opposed on this point.
I just noticed that Scarlett Johansson is about a decade-and-a-half short of looking like Debi Mazar.
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Re: Could Doctor Who ever be a Woman?

Postby RIP » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:54 am

Can't say I am surprised. We are diametrically opposed personalities.

But out of sheer curiosity, please elaborate your point.

My argument ist this:
- existing pop culture is not written in stone
- the current trend to rehash old material closes doors on wfemale characters rather than opening them
- changes made to new versions of existing pop culture does not change the value of the old stuff
- the ratio of men to women is 45:55 (roughly) so why is the ratio of men to woman in TV and movies so much worse?
- the new wonder woman movie shows hpw starved women are for proper role models/stories told about and by women
- I can think of plenty worse messages to send our children that men and women are equal and women have every right to their own lives
- how can such a minor issue as a new Ghostbusters movie become greater political issue than a freaking presidential election? Geez priorities!
- it's fucking 2017, we have internet, TNG style PADDs and a fucking space station! Why the fuck is this still a fucking issue?

Sorry for swearing.
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Re: Could Doctor Who ever be a Woman?

Postby JM1776 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:01 am

We're not talking about the same thing, here, and are actually not as at odds as I first believed.

You're arguing the importance of true feminism when the subject for me is quality and originality of characterization.

I am not at all opposed to vital female characters who stand behind, beside or in front of men, dependent on their personal strength and virtue. I have no difficulty with them in any number fans, both male and female, find appealing. (As a matter of fact, strong female characters outnumber strong male characters by a significant margin in my own work.) I absolutely loved the new Wonder Woman film, though it's in my opinion self-evident that the reworked background story introduced by DC a decade or so ago, which makes her the daughter of Zeus, is far less interesting and noteworthy in contrast to the original, in which she is molded from clay and given life by the Olympian goddesses as the new Pandora. The new origin reduces her to just another demigod(dess) whose strength derives from a sky-father (and thus a male) instead of leaving her as a singularly distinctive being. In point of fact, and in this case, the far more innovative feminist origin blows away the standard "my dad can beat up your dad" one, which seems written by a power-obsessed fan-boy/girl. (I'm also irrevocably opposed to the myopic Superman-Wonder Woman romance, but that's another subject entirely.)

I am utterly opposed, though, to characters whose appeal is drawn and/or derived from the cachet of other characters. It's facile and shows a relative lack of imagination. You bolster this point with your reference to "the current rehash trend".

Equality between men and women, who differ in essence and nature, is a specious goal. Equity, however, is a worthy one. The sooner people abandon the former for the latter, the better off we'll all be.

Women deserve characters of their own, not those who are essentially male characters with the serial numbers removed by a rasp (and the penises removed with a stroke of a pen).

For example: Thor is not a woman. Can a woman be worthy of Mjolnir? Why not? But Thor himself is not a concept. He is a character, and it's not necessary to emasculate him merely to bolster his replacement, relatively speaking. Don't weaken men, or dumb them down, so as to place women at the forefront. Instead, create strong, vibrant female characters who hold their own simply by being themselves.

I can't speak directly to Ghostbusters, since I haven't seen it, but ... I dislike most remakes.

In short, if the Doctor is well written, I welcome the change. If it's change for change's sake, or to fulfill a feminist agenda, it's asinine and tiresome.
I just noticed that Scarlett Johansson is about a decade-and-a-half short of looking like Debi Mazar.
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Re: Could Doctor Who ever be a Woman?

Postby RIP » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:22 am

Wonder Woman had its strengths. I was not perfectly happy with the ending. Making her fight the intangible man Ares had been before would've yielded much better results imho.

Nevertheless I find it very strange to show strong emotions about something that no one has even seen yet.

I can't say anything about Thor, I chose other things over nurturing comic book collection/reading. In any case Thor has never been a character I was particularly interested in. I saw the movie because friends were watching it. Don't ask me what it was about. Same with most Marvel stuff.

As for the Doctor Who debate, much of my personal reaction to the Internet is summed up here:
https://youtu.be/PMSIe6WfXYE

If it doesn't show up google doctor who helpline. I was amused.

Some remakes/rehashes are worth it. Think Mad Max Fury Road, Battlestar Galactica or even most of the non-TOS Star Trek. Some are awful. Thinking of A-Team, TMNT (though retrospectively they were never good) or the Star Wars prequels. I prefer not to judge before I see something.

On the other hand sitting on the other side of the ocean and thereby out of the reachvof most hypes makes a nig difference. Stuff is several delayed here so the hype barely gets a chance.

Bottom line: I don't know how the female doctor will do. I didn't like Matt Smith and loved both Christopher Ecclestone and David Tennant. I haven't seen season 9 or 10 so I can't comment on them I refuse to pay for the privilege to see them when I know they will be free when I wait.
Life is very similar to boxing. Defeat is not declared when you fall down. It's declared when you can no longer get up.

Some people just want to watch the world burn... not because of the pretty colors but because after the fire, there comes rejuvination.
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Re: Could Doctor Who ever be a Woman?

Postby JM1776 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:34 am

RIP wrote:Nevertheless I find it very strange to show strong emotions about something that no one has even seen yet.


Quite right, in most cases.

I find the Abrams Trek films an abomination and a travesty, and have no emotional investment in Doctor Who, but ...

... people whining about the sex and/or gender of a sci-fi character who regenerates their entire body need to get a grip.

Still, if Wonder Woman were made into a man, you can take to the bank that certain feminists would go completely ape-shit, for as little reason.

It matters to us when it matters to us.
I just noticed that Scarlett Johansson is about a decade-and-a-half short of looking like Debi Mazar.
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Re: Could Doctor Who ever be a Woman?

Postby chasnicollette » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:11 am

Wonderous Man of Earth-11 is actually a fairly awesome character.

Of course, that whole universe is flipped on the gender binary, so it means Superman is Superwoman, Batman is Batwoman, et cetera, et al--

--Aquawoman is an incredible bad-ass.

I'm pretty happy with that situation.
"He has a range of awareness that startles you, but it belongs to him by right, because it belongs to the world he lives in. If there were enough like him, the world would be a very safe place to live in, without becoming too dull to be worth living in." -Raymond Chandler.

"Allons-y." -The Tenth Doctor.

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Re: Could Doctor Who ever be a Woman?

Postby JM1776 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:18 am

I did say "certain feminists". Those lacking a sense of proportion or irony would top the list.

Anything well-written is more forgivable, granted ... but it makes them no less derivative, and thus by their very nature inferior. In addition, novelty lends those characters a pass, at least short-term. It's very different from what's been done with, say, (and I know I'm beating this to death) Thor.
I just noticed that Scarlett Johansson is about a decade-and-a-half short of looking like Debi Mazar.
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Re: Could Doctor Who ever be a Woman?

Postby chasnicollette » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:19 am

Although if it were a situation where Wonder Woman was suddenly a man and nothing else were different, I think we would, as women, have reason to be upset.

Because it would be taking a role away from women when we already have demonstrably significantly fewer to start with.

Rather like taking a role from a person of color and giving it to a white person-- our media is predominantly white characters, of course it's upsetting to see a role of color get subtracted. Taking a white character and casting them as a POC-- Smallville's Pete Ross, the Michael Clarke Duncan version of Kingpin-- on the other hand, increases the number of roles available to people of color and decreases the disparity, which is an excellent thing.

Lucy Liu's casting as a John Watson-- Joan Watson-- who's a woman of color was absolutely brilliant. For all of "Elementary's" faults, though I think they're few, that was a masterstroke new spin on a mythos almost 200 years old.

Of course we hope that the writing is still awesome-- that the writing reflects the new diversity by putting new and interesting spins on the character without changing their core mythic dynamic. But any step towards answering the aforementioned disparity is a step in the right direction.

It's a double standard, sure, but it's a double standard with a progressive purpose.
"He has a range of awareness that startles you, but it belongs to him by right, because it belongs to the world he lives in. If there were enough like him, the world would be a very safe place to live in, without becoming too dull to be worth living in." -Raymond Chandler.

"Allons-y." -The Tenth Doctor.

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Re: Could Doctor Who ever be a Woman?

Postby chasnicollette » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:20 am

JM1776 wrote:I did say "certain feminists". Those lacking a sense of proportion or irony would top the list.

Anything well-written is more forgivable, granted ... but it makes them no less derivative, and thus by their very nature inferior. In addition, novelty lends those characters a pass, at least short-term. It's very different from what's been done with, say, (and I know I'm beating this to death) Thor.


Do you mean having Jane Foster inherit Thor's mantle?

How do you feel about that?
"He has a range of awareness that startles you, but it belongs to him by right, because it belongs to the world he lives in. If there were enough like him, the world would be a very safe place to live in, without becoming too dull to be worth living in." -Raymond Chandler.

"Allons-y." -The Tenth Doctor.

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Re: Could Doctor Who ever be a Woman?

Postby JM1776 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:32 am

chasnicollette wrote:
JM1776 wrote:I did say "certain feminists". Those lacking a sense of proportion or irony would top the list.

Anything well-written is more forgivable, granted ... but it makes them no less derivative, and thus by their very nature inferior. In addition, novelty lends those characters a pass, at least short-term. It's very different from what's been done with, say, (and I know I'm beating this to death) Thor.


Do you mean having Jane Foster inherit Thor's mantle?

How do you feel about that?


Jane Foster is in every way worthy of wielding Mjolnir.

But that's not all Jason Aarons did. He has asserted that "Thor" is a concept and not a particular being, which is so enormously asinine it qualifies as a "big lie", in that if you tell it often enough and with sufficient conviction, the credulous begin to think, Wow, it's so ridiculous no one would say that unless it's true. In addition, Aarons writes almost all his women as strong, brilliant, courageous and possessed of deep feminine wisdom—which would be OK if he hadn't made Thor over into an ineffectual lamebrain and Odin into an egocentric monster. It's as if he writes with his domineering girlfriend or wife looking over his shoulder, making certain the feminist agenda is being writ large. Good ... Lord.

Jane is very much capable of holding the mantle of Thor. But she isn't Thor, and no amount of bullshit from its writer can make it so.

The man's written great stories. In this case, he's totally off the rails ... and I honestly don't think there's any reasonable way to see it otherwise.
I just noticed that Scarlett Johansson is about a decade-and-a-half short of looking like Debi Mazar.
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Re: Could Doctor Who ever be a Woman?

Postby RIP » Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:08 am

Allow me to make an assumption: Joe really liked Thor and is upset he has changed profoundly enough for him to be unhappy about it.

If Wonder Woman had been Wonder Man instead I sincerely believe the movie would never have been even remotely as successful. We've seen this movie a Thousand times. Basically any incarnation of Hercules/Herakles/Spartacus/Ben Hur/...
Life is very similar to boxing. Defeat is not declared when you fall down. It's declared when you can no longer get up.

Some people just want to watch the world burn... not because of the pretty colors but because after the fire, there comes rejuvination.
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Re: Could Doctor Who ever be a Woman?

Postby JM1776 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:38 am

RIP wrote:Allow me to make an assumption: Joe really liked Thor and is upset he has changed profoundly enough for him to be unhappy about it.


A reasonable assumption, if incomplete.

I dislike the changes because they are illogical, done with a clear agenda and not particularly interesting as relates to the character's evolution. Saying, "A has the power of B" is reasonable. Saying "A is no longer A. A is now B. B, by the way, is now C" is complete bullshit to anyone with half a brain.

I like Thor. I like the Jane Foster character wielding Mjolnir. I don't like the hamstringing of the Thor character, and I don't like the attempt to claim Foster as the "real Thor". Some of Aarons' developments are interesting and enjoyable. Some of them suck.

You don't hear me going on and on about why the Doctor as a woman is ridiculous, because the character could very easily be a woman when one considers his (and now her) origin and capabilities. It's not identity theft, like it is with Thor.

If Wonder Woman had been Wonder Man instead I sincerely believe the movie would never have been even remotely as successful. We've seen this movie a Thousand times. Basically any incarnation of Hercules/Herakles/Spartacus/Ben Hur/...


I'd say that's pretty self-evident. In a way, that was the film's main weakness. Wonder Woman solves problems the same way a man would, which is not necessarily what the character's creator intended. Enjoyable as an action film and adequate to introduce WW as "as bad-ass as the boys", but ... not nearly so daring as it could have been.
I just noticed that Scarlett Johansson is about a decade-and-a-half short of looking like Debi Mazar.
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