Star Wars: Episode 8: The Last Jedi

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Re: Star Wars: Episode 8: The Last Jedi

Post by JM1776 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:30 am

I agree with just about everything Michael said ... and still rate it the best Star Wars movie I've ever seen.

I need, though, to define "best" in context.

I have zero expectations left, and only want to be entertained for two hours. The Force Awakens didn't do that. None of the prequels did. This succeeded.

I don't think that, five years from now, I'll still think it's the best one I've seen. But I was tremendously diverted, thought all the non-contemporary humor hit its mark squarely (especially the "Are you reading me?" thing, which was in my opinion hilarious and struck me as something that character would do), which means it served its purpose better than any of the other films for me, even though at least two and perhaps three are better films.

The Leia thing I think was supposed to show how she's been strong with the Force, but untrained, and it acted to preserve her just that once. Worked for me, but I see why it hit Michael's bullshit detector.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 8: The Last Jedi

Post by sirus » Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:05 am

I think the humor is highly subjective. I found it to be a lot of fun and I loved the bit with "General Hugs" and "Ok, I'll hold" in the beginning. And the Porgs never failed to make me laugh. I have seen the movie 3 times now and laughed all 3 times. Not once have I felt like people were acting out of character or "saying something to be funny".

I've seen a lot of complaints about the casino planet being a waste, but really all the Star Wars movies have pointless detores and plot threads that really go nowhere. The trash compactor monster? The asteroid monster? One could argue much of the Hoth section of empire does nothing to the overall plot of Empire and we wouldn't lose that much if it were a heck of a lot shorter. The Jabba stuff seems to drag on forever and it has nothing to do with the greater plot going on. A lot of people view the Ewok stuff as cringy. And that's just the Original Trilogy. For me the casino planet did something great, it added a new layer to the society in Star Wars. As a die hard Table Top roleplayer stuff like that is great to me. I love going to new places and I thought seeing it was fantastic. I thought the racetrack bits were great and I enjoyed all the bits with the new code breaker. To me the whole plot thread was good. Some have complained about length, but I'll get to that.

Then we have the stuff with Snoke, and we get into some spoilers...
Spoiler:
The thing is that even from the beginning we were never promised any answers. I mean we knew nothing about the Emperor when he showed up in ESB and RotJ.
So why did anyone expect to learn the big epic backstory of this new character. We had hints of something epic and a lot of fan theories, but in truth there was very little official said about him. Mostly just grasping at straws. It seems odd to me that people seemed to have decided that he was the big villain, when it is clear that the villain of the story is Kylo Ren. Kylo Ren is meant to be the primary antagonist so of course he has to cut down anyone who lessens his impact as a villain. If we get a book explaining a bit more, that'll be nice, but to me Snoke is like Darth Plagueis the Wise, he's not where your attention should be.
Ok, the most complaints I see is on Luke... so more spoilers...
Spoiler:
I liked it. I thought it was great to see that he was not all knowing, all good, all fantastic and wonderful and can do nothing wrong. He had a moment of fear and doubt and a moment was all it took to push his nephew down a dark path. And people say that was unlike Luke. And I think "Really?" Luke went berserk, cut off Vader's hand, and nearly killed him before he managed to stop himself, and still there was a moment where he stood over his father, lightsaber in hand, considering killing him. It wasn't until the Emperor spoke to him and congratulated him on his victory then told him to kill Vader that Luke remembered who he really was. Luke has gotten close to the dark side before, even in the EU, the thing is that in the end Luke always returns to the light. And as for the end...

Well Luke's death was perhaps the most moving and beautiful death scenes in the franchise thus far. It was foreshadowed early in the movie when Kylo Ren was linked with Rey and said something to the gist of "You can't be doing this, the strain would kill you." And Luke did something so much more than just that. And we saw what the strain did to him. But more importantly Luke Skywalker allowed himself to become a legend again. In the beginning he was ashamed of being a legend and by the end he embraced the idea. And we saw the kids talking about him, speaking of the legend of the Jedi Knight who stood before the might of the First Order, alone, and they could not lay a finger on him and at the peak of his power, he disappeared. That is the stuff good legends are made of. They are made of failure and redemption.
Rey's Parents
Spoiler:
Are no one special? Ok. I mean this just means that at anytime someone can be born who will bring the force back into balance. When a powerful dark side user rises a light side user must also rise. This was strongly implied in the movie. For Rey to come from no one, to not have the lineage is far more interesting in the long run than to have her be some named characters daughter/granddaughter. I know it was built up as a mystery, and this is a bit anticlimactic, but let's look at the story arc for a second. Rey would not leave Jakku because she was waiting for her parents. By the end of the movie she had to accept that they weren't coming back for her. Rey starts this movie hoping that knowing who her parents are will tell her where she fits belongs in the larger story, but by the end she has to accept that they are no one and she isn't going to get her answers from there. Meaning in the third of this new trilogy she will need to determine for herself where she fits in and where she is going. She has had the pieces of herself she held dear at the beginning of her story removed and shown to be false. No she can be something more.
Rey's Training
Spoiler:
Most of Luke's training with Yoda was physical, Rey has already been shown to be physically able. What she needed from Luke was to be taught how to reach out and feel the force. She needed to confront her own darkness, something she did in the cave (an amazing scene that really disassembles her character), and she needed to learn to let go of so much. Rey's training was about learning to trust and rely on the force. Luke's was about getting ready for the fight that was to come AND to trust and rely on the force. It makes sense that Luke's training took longer. Also given that the Force has been shown to be able to guide Jedi, it guided Luke in making his second lightsaber, something he did not know how to make yet made with no instructions or help, it is not much of a stretch to think that Rey's "training" is complete, but her "journey" toward becoming a Jedi is not.
Ok, onto the Leia thing. I do not get the Leia thing and I am greatly annoyed by people calling it "Mary Poppins," because if anything that was a Superman pose. And it didn't seem odd to me either time I saw the movie. Maybe I was just caught up in what was going on, but it seemed bigger to me to see her use the force than that the cinematography was odd. And really this is a silly complaint. If we're going to pick apart Star Wars for every moment off odd camera work or cinematography we will be here all day.

And now for some minor complaints I have seen. "The movie is one giant chase"; a lot of movies are one long chase scene when you get down to it. "That's not how hyperspeed works"; I don't care how you think it works, that was cool. "The Knights of Ren never showed up"; I don't care, they wouldn't fit into the story worth a damn and I bet we'll see them soon enough. "The romance I wanted didn't happen"; yeah, don't care, grow up. "Captain Phasma..."; Gonna stop anyone who stop right there, Phasma is an interesting character in the vein of Bobba Fett, as in totally pointless and more a result of marketing and stupid fans. "Admiral Holdo doesn't tell anyone her plan"; yeah, not quite true, she doesn't tell Poe her plan, but then again Poe is a hot head and was just demoted, she doesn't know him or trust him. "Not enough said about Han"; I think most of the plot was focused on not dying and really, we had our emotional scenes, I know people wanted more, but the movie didn't owe them anything.

And finally we come to the length of the movie. I own the extended editions of The Lord of the Rings.I have seen them. They are each 4 hours long. I think the 4 hour version is better than the 3 hour version. I know there are a number of people who will sit down and watch episode after episode after episode of a show and then feel sad when it ends. Two and a half hours really isn't that long for as big of a movie as this felt. It is longer than the other Star Wars movies, but usually we have 2 to 3 plots, this time we had 3 to 4 depending on how you want to count. So yeah, there was a lot going on.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 8: The Last Jedi

Post by JM1776 » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:00 am

And I agree with almost everything Sirus said, too.

Wow. I'm just so amenable lately. Perhaps I should go back to Discovery and see how I feel about that.

Nah.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 8: The Last Jedi

Post by Michael » Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:57 pm

sirus wrote:
Spoiler:
So why did anyone expect to learn the big epic backstory of this new character. We had hints of something epic and a lot of fan theories, but in truth there was very little official said about him.
Spoiler:
I didn't need a huge back story about Snoke. As I stated in my earlier comment, I was looking for his motivation beyond just being evil.

There was nothing I wanted to be told about Snoke. But I did want to be shown things about him. I felt I didn't get enough to make the character at all compelling.


Spoiler:
It seems odd to me that people seemed to have decided that he was the big villain, when it is clear that the villain of the story is Kylo Ren. Kylo Ren is meant to be the primary antagonist so of course he has to cut down anyone who lessens his impact as a villain.
Spoiler:
If the intent was for Kylo Ren to be the main antagonist, Snoke only muddies those waters. I think it would have been far better to have eliminated Snoke from both films, leaving Kylo Ren as the leader of the First Order, having him as the central focus as the person who brought the Empire back from the abyss to rise again, making Luke's failure even more striking.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 8: The Last Jedi

Post by Michael » Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:58 pm

JM1776 wrote:And I agree with almost everything Sirus said, too.

Wow. I'm just so amenable lately. Perhaps I should go back to Discovery and see how I feel about that.

Nah.
:D
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 8: The Last Jedi

Post by sirus » Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:34 am

Spoiler:
I think Snoke was a red herring as it were. He was designed to attract attention but in the end be meaningless. I think we might get a book about him in the next year or so, and if we don't he'll likely show up in some way in episode 9. I think Saying that we didn't the backstory in the middle chapter is a bit odd. We could still get it. It's like complaining about Rey's parents and saying episode 9 could retcon it. Or it could be that Kylo was lying to manipulate her. We just don't know. We haven't seen the whole picture yet.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 8: The Last Jedi

Post by captainuniverse » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:34 pm

Yoda’s ears looked wrong to me.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 8: The Last Jedi

Post by Michael » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:16 pm

captainuniverse wrote:Yoda’s ears looked wrong to me.
Spoiler:
I was thrilled they had Yoda appear. But as that scene played out, my first thought was, "My God... that's got to be some of the worst CGI since the movie Lost In Space. But then I read they had used a puppet, augmented by CGI.

For all the screaming about the horrors of CGI, I thought Yoda in Attack of the Clones was okay, with a few problems here and there, but he looked pretty good in Revenge of the Sith.

I feel Yoda's appearance in The Last Jedi was a step backward.

And I agree, Cap. His ears did look strange.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 8: The Last Jedi

Post by captainuniverse » Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:42 pm

Michael wrote:
captainuniverse wrote:Yoda’s ears looked wrong to me.
Spoiler:
I was thrilled they had Yoda appear. But as that scene played out, my first thought was, "My God... that's got to be some of the worst CGI since the movie Lost In Space. But then I read they had used a puppet, augmented by CGI.

For all the screaming about the horrors of CGI, I thought Yoda in Attack of the Clones was okay, with a few problems here and there, but he looked pretty good in Revenge of the Sith.

I feel Yoda's appearance in The Last Jedi was a step backward.

And I agree, Cap. His ears did look strange.

I agree with this assessment.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 8: The Last Jedi

Post by sirus » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:34 am

captainuniverse wrote:
Michael wrote:
captainuniverse wrote:Yoda’s ears looked wrong to me.
Spoiler:
I was thrilled they had Yoda appear. But as that scene played out, my first thought was, "My God... that's got to be some of the worst CGI since the movie Lost In Space. But then I read they had used a puppet, augmented by CGI.

For all the screaming about the horrors of CGI, I thought Yoda in Attack of the Clones was okay, with a few problems here and there, but he looked pretty good in Revenge of the Sith.

I feel Yoda's appearance in The Last Jedi was a step backward.

And I agree, Cap. His ears did look strange.

I agree with this assessment.
Makes me wonder why they keep having problems remaking the puppet. I mean when they made Phantom Menace it looked absolutely dreadful too, though that was by far that movies biggest problem and when they CGIed the puppet out it was better. But yeah, I think the only CGI on the new puppet was the blue outlining and basic effects like that. So I don't know why they can't just get the mold of Yoda right anymore, but I think it could be that we have gotten used to him in CG too. And that was definitely a puppet. I don't know.

A look at the various Yoda models
Spoiler:
The Empire Strikes Back
Image

Return of the Jedi
Image

Phantom Menace
Image

The Last Jedi
Image
Now if you compare those closely, I think you can tell, that the CGI version looks about as much like the original as the new one does. It's just that the new one doesn't look that much like the CGI version. And the Phantom Menace puppet version looks all wrong in a number of ways, I think they made him tried to look much younger and it just didn't work.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 8: The Last Jedi

Post by JM1776 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:57 am

I think this demonstrates how little I'm invested in Star Wars.

Yoda seemed fine to me.

I bow to the gallery's superior nit-pickiness.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 8: The Last Jedi

Post by sirus » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:50 am

JM1776 wrote:I think this demonstrates how little I'm invested in Star Wars.

Yoda seemed fine to me.

I bow to the gallery's superior nit-pickiness.
Oh no, I don't want it to seem like I'm at all annoyed or upset by this little changes. The Yoda puppet looks odd even in some scenes in Empire. I think we saw only a little bit of him in Last Jedi and it is very clearly a new face sculpt. I am confused as to why they didn't just use the CG model they have to make the new face sculpt, but for all I know they did and that's why it looks a little odd. I mean really, if you compare all the versions of Yoda we have seen in various media his appearance has changed a bit each time. So that wasn't that big of a deal, at least to me.

Also to me, the looks was not as important as the dialogue and the scene hit home for me there. I loved hearing Frank Oz again and I felt the dialogue in the scene was great.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 8: The Last Jedi

Post by sirus » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:36 am

sirus wrote:
Spoiler:
I think Snoke was a red herring as it were. He was designed to attract attention but in the end be meaningless. I think we might get a book about him in the next year or so, and if we don't he'll likely show up in some way in episode 9. I think Saying that we didn't the backstory in the middle chapter is a bit odd. We could still get it. It's like complaining about Rey's parents and saying episode 9 could retcon it. Or it could be that Kylo was lying to manipulate her. We just don't know. We haven't seen the whole picture yet.
Spoiler:
Image
I think we can all clearly see who Snoke really is. Backstory confirmed.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 8: The Last Jedi

Post by Triton » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:58 pm

I thought that this video by David V Stewart was interesting. I am sharing for discussion purposes. Your mileage may vary.


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Re: Star Wars: Episode 8: The Last Jedi

Post by FltCpt. Bossco » Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:51 am

Exactly!!! I agree with this video. It could also be applied to the New Trek movies as well as ST Discovery. Thank you Triton for posting this. (\gorn/)

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